Pros multi-media zines: reviews ahoy!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Hello, DIALJ Christmas tree watchers!

So we have had music as we open the presents, and there have been calendars and icons and ficlets and stories and I have none of these. I can't do graphics, and I made someone go ewww with my most recent drabbly effort (*iz proud*) so perhaps I won't do that, and I stupidly posted a story a fortnight ago which would have done quite nicely today and now I haven't got one for today. Whoops. But byslantedlight did say anything Pros-y. So I thought I would tell you all about my zine adventures.

I like zines, and I have bought quite a lot of them. Most of them are zines which are still in print, and some of them are very recent indeed. And nearly all of them are Pros-specific. So Pros-specific that even a crossover with Ladder of Swords is quite the departure. It is comparatively easy to find reviews of recent zines, and it is comparatively easy to find reviews of Pros-specific zines.

But recently I took the plunge and bought second-hand a great heap of crossover and what I gather are called multi-media zines. I kept waiting for them to sing at me, or to smell of interesting things if I scratched them, but apparently that is not the same kind of multi-media. Alas. Anyway, it is not nearly so easy to find reviews of these zines. Not if you only know about Pros resources on the web. (I did find a few which listed all the B7 pairings in them, and I expect that there are reviews over in S&H-land, but that is foreign territory to me.) So I thought I'd do some.

So here we go. I split them into separate posts, a zine per post. And over the course of the day, as LJ permits, I shall post a bunch of them. I am hoping to post them for Concupiscence, Concupiscence 3, Dark Fantasies 2, Dark Fantasies 4 and It's Greek To Me. We'll see how it goes. If you get fed up, do feel free to beg me to stop!

Comments

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

What a clever idea! :D

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I hope it works. And that you don't kill me when we reach the S&H stories :)

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

LOL
I am basically totally gen on S&H, so I won't care what you say... unless you've decided to review some gen stories? If you did I'll be curious what you said. But if you write about slash I won't care even if you trash it because I just can't enjoy it for S&H anyway.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

No, all slash, I'm afraid. So I am safe from being killed by you, at least!

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

Heh. Always, mate. :)

*drops the shooter with one up the spout* Oops.... >.>;;;;;;

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

What an interesting and helpful idea! I hope when you've finished you can gather all the reviews together and put them somewhere permanently available with one link.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I must admit, I initially thought "and they will be on LJ for all to see and hopefully will help people", and then as LJ staggered through the early part of the week, I thought "what if LJ dies? Argh. They'd better go somewhere else too".

They're not all unrestrained enthusiasm, and I am totally at sea with some fandoms, and I hope one or two authors won't be too pissed off, but I have tried to be fair.

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure where the safest places are for things go. Maybe byslantedlight would have some idea? I know she's been distressed over the loss of some Pros history when a comm was deleted. But it's possible you could use fanlore - the fan wiki that OTW/AO3 are establishing. Maybe we could investigate? I try to make sure things have more than one home - LJ, Dreamwidth, AO3 (yes, I know, it's only for stories), websites, Yahoo groups, and of course one's own computer-plus-back-up-discs plus maybe the cloud? You can't guard against every eventuality but it makes sense to have more than one point of access.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well, reviews for Pros zines can totally go up on Palelyloitering.com (www.palelyloitering.com), which is the whole reason it was created, and was the source of much of Fanlore's info about and images of Pros zines... *g*

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Did you load/contribute the Fanlore info, then?

The 'trouble' with Palely Loitering is that it's still LJ and I suppose we're considering worst case scenario here.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Did you load/contribute the Fanlore info, then?
No, they copied various pages from Palelyloitering.com - as far as I know they've generally credited my site as the source.

But Palelyloitering.com (www.palelyloitering.com) is a completely independent website, paid for and hosted by a friend of mine - it's not anything to do with livejournal at all. Livejournal could vanish tomorrow, and Palelyloitering.com would still be there!

Are you confusing the website with loiteringpalely, perhaps? I originally set up that lj as a way for people to interact with the website (hence the similar name), but it wasn't often used and so I changed its purpose - eventually to what it is now!

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Oops, yes! I was doing exactly that! I hadn't realised it was an independent website, which of course makes it much safer.

Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

While I was struggling with posting, I see that byslantedlight posted about the Paley Loitering website. I also suggested to moonlightmead that she house the reviews at Paley Loitering AND the Hatstand Archive.

Fanlore has its place - and a fine place it is *g* - but I really want to encourage Pros fen to use and support Pros dedicated sites first. Not exclusively, but first.

I think it's vitally important that a fandom have its own resources. While multi-fandom resources are wonderful - I love them, I use them, I support them! - nothing beats the experience of fannish immersion and fandom-specific resources are an integral part of that experience.

On a more practical note, as byslantedlight points out, Fanlore often gathers info from the Pros fandom-specific resources. Additonally, many (most?) zine reviews that I've seen at Fanlore tend to be excerpts or truncated versions. I don't think I've seen multiple full length reviews for a zine at Fanlore (though it's been a while since I've checked and things do change) but I know that I have seen that at both Palely Loitering and the Hatstand Archive.

And I really want to echo your call to make sure that fan works have more than one home! I'm so tired of seeing fannish history lost - needlessly - when a little extra effort could avoid it. And trying to resurrect and reclaim fannish history and fan works is a far, far more time and labor intensive process!!

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I've been struggling too which is why it has taken me so long to get back to you. The Hatstand is an excellent suggestion. Palely Loitering is equally excellent but is still LJ and I think we were considering worst case scenario and LJ going pear-shaped.

I agree about fandom-specific resources - provided they aren't all in the same place! Maybe mirror-image coms on Dreamwidth?

Fanlore is run by fans for fans, so it's up to us what goes up there. If you haven't seen full reviews that will be because nobody has felt like putting them up there...

I feel strongly that we need to store stuff in lots of different places. if resources are worth having they are worth keeping in ways that ensure they won't be lost.

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Again, just to re-iterate, because hopefully taverymate will get this notification too, Palelyloitering.com (www.palelyloitering.com) is nothing to do with livejournal - it's a completely independent website and thus an independent archive!

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Message received! *g*

Seriously, you can (and probably should) contribute to Fanlore. It's like Wikipedia - only as good as its contributors on any particular issue. I'm not only an ardent supporter of AO3/Fanlore/OTW, I've actually volunteered to help from January.

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

To be honest I'm one of those people with reservations about the whole AO3/Fanlore/OTW thing. I'm not a fan in the sense that Pros for me is not about fandom as such, though I have a peripheral interest in that now too. But I'm here for Pros, and to interact with people about Pros, and what I loved when I found Pros on lj was that it was a corner of people sharing a common love. There were places I could go to find Pros stories, and to share stories and pictures and all sorts. And it was about Pros. I think if I'd come across the morass of fandom that is A03/Fanlore/OTW I probably wouldn't have got involved at all, it's just too big. I do absolutely appreciate the premise of it all, but... to me it's the difference between walking into a big party, all excited about a thousand different things, and walking into a pub where there's a group of people in the corner all talking about something I'm interested in. In the latter I can see a starting place, and I feel that if I say something it won't be lost in the big noise/s.

Similarly, and taverymate touches on this up in her comments, I love that I can go to the Circuit or Hatstand archives, or to my own Palelyloitering, and know that everything I find there will either be about Pros or else very closely related to Pros. Going to AO3 is more like walking into a massive library and knowing that I need to find the Pros section, and that I know some of the authors, but that I'm going to have to search and dig to find what I want. Compounding that, if an author there decides that she wants me to be spoiled for her story, then I am spoiled for her story, and that's that. I have no choice, for myself. The Circuit and original Hatstand archives, though, followed the Pros fandom tradition (much debated in the letterzines and so on, too!) of not forcing spoilers on their readers, and I really appreciate that.

My final problem though, and the one that compounds all my other thoughts about Fanlore/AO3/OTW is that I just don't have time! I can contribute to Pros, to our fandom, which is why I'm here at all, but I actually need to spend some time off the computer, too! I have contributed to Fanlore/AO3/OTW indirectly by gathering together information about Pros fandom history at the_safehouse (I'll try and find you the link later, but this was only supposed to be a quick comment!), and I noticed quite early on that they'd taken numerous of my pages from Palelyloitering.com, and I've no doubt that I might contribute in a similar way in the future, but... but there are limits to what one girl can do, I'm afraid! *g*

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Of course there are limits - and you probably go beyond them most of the time, doing such a fantastic job for us!

I can understand your feelings about the fandom multiverse but don't share them. *g* I need the big party, and the big library, and am quite happy to wander around looking for the people or shelves that might interest me. That, of course, means I would never have/spare the time to do the kind of work you do for Pros. So I'm glad you feel the way you do!

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews & Fanlore

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I shall echo some of this. One thing this whole experience has reinforced to me is that for me, there is a difference between Pros and 'all the rest'. I don't understand why, but it's certainly the case.

I love knowing context and history for all sorts of things, so it is interesting to know how Pros fits in (and sometimes it helps explain bits and pieces), but there is so much on fanlore, and occasionally you stumble across bits which are clearly contested.

But I am happy in Pros. Occasional trips abroad, yes (and at least I know some names to look out for if I fancy a visit elsewhere now), but after all those stories, I am going to curl up with some Pros-specific fic now!

Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the delete and repost but LJ is screening comments at this comm if they include outside links!

REPLACE hXXp with http for the links.

Delighted to see more zine reviews. Look forward to reading them, especially as I'm familiar with the zines and always curious to see what others think.

Yes, you absolutely should think about where to place the reviews so that they remain available, and moth2fic is right that folks should make sure that fan works have more than one home. Luckily, you have several excellent options!

I would strongly recommend that you send the reviews to BOTH the Hatstand Archive (the original, not the automated Hatstand Archive) and to the Palely Loitering website. Both are dedicated Pros sites and already have well established zine review sections and both are always eager to have more. Also, both welcome diverse opinions on zines and stories, and love having multiple reviews of zines.

There is absolutely NO problem with housing the zine reviews at both sites. Pen (Hatstand Archive) and byslantedlight (Palely Loitering) have said repeatedly that they have no problem with having info available at both sites. I know for a fact that both are strong believers in redundancy, so that information is not lost if a single site disappears.

If you go to the main page of the Hatstand Archive (hXXp://hatstand.slashcity.net/) about halfway down the page you'll see a link to the Professionals Slash Fanzines: "a master listing of zines with Pros slash content. Links go to pages for each zine or series of zines, giving contents, availability, comments or reviews where available, and contact info for publishers or agents of in-print zines."

On the Professional Slash Fanzines page (hXXp://hatstand.slashcity.net/zineinfo/fanzines.html), Pen says: "I'd love to add more reviews! Or synopses of stories, for that matter. Please consider sending me any you have and I'll add them to help prospective buyers decide whether a zine might be to their taste or not."

You can reach her at: hatstander at gmail dot com

The Palely Loitering website will host reviews at the site itself (which I'd recommend to have the info available off LJ as well as on) or link to other sites/LJ pages if you prefer.
hXXp://www.palelyloitering.com/index.html

You can email byslantedlight at slantedlight at livejournal dot com or leave a comment on one of her recent LJ posts - though I'd suggest email as LJ notifications are NOT a sure thing.

IMO, the Hatstand Archive (and the Automated Hatstand Archive) and the Palely Loitering website are among the crown jewels of Pros fandom and the archivists/maintainers are true treasures! Let's take advantage of the existing Pros infrastructure to keep fanworks accessible.

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

*drowns under info*

Thanks! Now that I have started posting them, I am already seeing typos and mistakes (and to think that I complain about typos in others' work) so they're not going anywhere yet. I've already talked to byslantedlight, but I had completely overlooked the hatstand, despite the fact that I have enjoyed reading reviews there myself.

I'm familiar with the zines - this is the bit I am half-dreading and half-praying for: the fact that there are going to be a lot of people here who know not just this fandom but all the others much better than I do. I hope I don't tread on too many toes. But I am very interested in hearing other people's opinions.

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hear you on the typos. *g* I hate the fact that LJ won't let basic accounts edit comments. My typos tend to be missing words - my brain moves faster than my fingers *G* - and spell check is no help there!

As to treading on toes, I'm firmly in the camp that an honest opinion is a million times preferrable to a polite fiction. I have NO problem with critical reviews or less than enthusiastic responses. Those are as important - if not more important - than uniformly positive reviews. Just tell me what you think (positive and negative) and why you formed that opinion, and I'm going to appreciate the effort - even if I don't agree with you.

So long as a review or opinion piece is not motivated by malice, with the deliberate intent to cause distress and/or harm, then I don't think there should be a problem with an honest, critical or even negative review. And those that are solely prompted by malice are NOT honest reviews anyway!

When it comes to an outside perspective on a fandom, those can be quite interesting. There's even a periodic fest/challenge in vidding circles specifically built around that, where folks watch vids in unfamiliar fandoms and then review and try and explain them.

Re: Zines With Pros Content - Where to Place Reviews

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the screening - I left the lj-default comment screening on after the last rash of spambotters, but have re-set it now, so you shouldn't have any more problems! We'll see how it goes... *g*

And thank you for your very kind words about palelyloitering.com - it's not all it could be yet, but I shall keep working on it! *g*

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

Great idea! And a useful resource too, I'll look forward to reading your reviews! :-D

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

It's the end of the day for me, so I hope you enjoyed them!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Because of the idiosyncrasies of LJ I've only just seen this post and I wanted to say I think this is a great idea.

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Oh, cool! This is a great idea! Sometimes these stories and zines are overlooked, so it's great to bring them into the light, more or less. *g* Go at it!

(Of course, you'll get me wanting to dive into my zines just as I'm going away from them for three week. Huh)

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Not sure all of them really stand up well in the light, but it has been an adventure going through them.

You won't have time to read zines on your travels, there will be writing to do instead!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Excellent idea for Christmas posts - I love hearing about zine (and story!) adventures!

Palelyloitering.com (www.palelyloitering.com) was originally planned to include reviews of everything to do with Pros zines, and I define Pros zines as anything with a Pros story in it! So ideally there'll be reviews there of all the stories in the multifandom zines, including the non-Pros stories (cos if there's one good Pros story in a zine and the other stories are awful then I for one would probably try to get hold of the Pros story separately. But if the other fandom stories were supposed to be excellent, then I'd probably buy the zine itself, thinking that one day I might read them. So multi-fandom reviews like that would be useful for me, anyway (and to be honest, useful-for-me was one of the reasons I started Palelyloitering! *g* Trouble is, I've been concentrating on Pros to get the website up and running, so there aren't any multifandom reviews up yet - until now... *g*

Are you happy for me to copy your reviews over, rather than just linking to them? It'll make for safer archiving, as taverymate and moth2fic above point out is vitally important!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I said yes originally, and I'm not going to go back on it now - way too late, since it's on here already.

But I'm also rethinking (again...) the whole thing about what needs preserving where. The web throws up occasional firestorms where some sort of tiny interest suddenly gets catapulted into global prominence for a day, and everyone suddenly has an opinion on... oh, a Youtube moment or a Twitter remark. People still remember, say 'cat in the wheeliebin woman' or - no, actually, I don't want to name too many because they're trying to live it down!

I am generally much happier on mailing lists where there is some sort of assumption that everyone has made at least the effort of subscribing and so things have some sort of limited circulation (and yes, I know that stuff gets forwarded off such lists, but...) rather than on the web where Google throws stuff up to anyone. But I gather I arrived about five years too late for that. Things are on the web - and I ought to be grateful, because without that availability I would never have found it after all that time.

But I'm looking at what I put in some of those reviews and thinking "ow. I would not like to defend that to.." (insert appropriate friends, family, employer here). On the other hand, I would have liked to have known more about them before buying them.

For some reason, I am less bothered about this when it comes to my stories. I don't know why.

Oh, it's all so complicated!